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Actually I cant say that I hate it at all. The vision is there and while this is not the best, most powerful or even the most usable release of KDE it certainly shows the potential. Not every step to the pinnacle is going to be on solid ground. When KDE 4 matures and sees a few more releases, you will forget about the growing pains. Its up to us to support these guys and let them do their thing, maybe even offer a few helpful suggestions.

Quoted from "ImperfectLink"

Actually I cant say that I hate it at all. The vision is there and while this is not the best, most powerful or even the most usable release of KDE it certainly shows the potential. Not every step to the pinnacle is going to be on solid ground. When KDE 4 matures and sees a few more releases, you will forget about the growing pains. Its up to us to support these guys and let them do their thing, maybe even offer a few helpful suggestions.

I agree but I think the developers need to reply to the suggestions.
I offered a few yesterday and no replies which makes me feel I am talking to a stone wall but I just want to be helpful.

Quoted from "Amy"

I agree but I think the developers need to reply to the suggestions.
I offered a few yesterday and no replies which makes me feel I am talking to a stone wall but I just want to be helpful.

Perhaps the KDE 4 Brainstorm needs to be more like brainstorm.ubuntu.com where you can offer up ideas and people vote on them. I think that would be an excellent way to earn developer attention as well as weigh the value of implementing those ideas.

Quoted from "ImperfectLink"

Quoted from "Amy"

I agree but I think the developers need to reply to the suggestions.
I offered a few yesterday and no replies which makes me feel I am talking to a stone wall but I just want to be helpful.

Perhaps the KDE 4 Brainstorm needs to be more like brainstorm.ubuntu.com where you can offer up ideas and people vote on them. I think that would be an excellent way to earn developer attention as well as weigh the value of implementing those ideas.

I like that idea then the KDE team will get what they want which is contributers which is what i want to be but mainly in the way of giving good feedback.

Yeah, I hate it but I also admire it. I can see how some people might love it, but I experience Plasma as an invisible wall between the Desktop and the file system. The plasmoids look pretty good, but they don't have any functional advantage over panel applets, which don't require all the dragging, resizing, locking and unlocking. That stuff is pretty painful on my old box.

People who don't use their computer all the time are going to love Plasma. It'll be a nice desktop to have, sitting in your living room with a big theme-integrated analog clock. And I don't mean to be condescending. That's just one example of people who are going to love this. I'm sure lots of straight-ahead power users are going to dig it. KDE 4.1 convinced me of the importance of the KDE 4 project to the future of free software. And it also convinced me that I personally would sooner drive nails into my screen.

Um, plasma is awesome. If you don't like it yet, just keep using KDE 3.5x until its at a point where you do like it, but honestly I don't see whats wrong with plasma. Its finally a great use of tecchnology for a desktop system. Im glad that KDE 4 discourages the traditional way of desktop use as a dumping ground for all you crap, but if you still wish to do so, there are ways. Plasma is a way forward, and people must understand that. I don't think using plasma as an option is even an idea, since it is an integral part of the concept of KDE 4 and the way it works. It takes modularity to a new level. If you want however, u can disable plasma, and run kicker and kdesktop instead, but that seems kinda defeatist to me

Quoted from "dgoemans"

Um, plasma is awesome. If you don't like it yet, just keep using KDE 3.5x until its at a point where you do like it,

See, this is what pisses me off. The presumption that I'll eventually come around is what makes me think that I'm not being respected, and it makes me <i>want</i> to hate KDE4 Why am I supposed to keep an open mind when my point of view is being dismissed.

Quoted

Plasma is a way forward, and people must understand that. I don't think using plasma as an option is even an idea, since it is an integral part of the concept of KDE 4 and the way it works. It takes modularity to a new level. If you want however, u can disable plasma, and run kicker and kdesktop instead, but that seems kinda defeatist to me.

Really, I need to go play with XFCE for a while. The smiley face tells me that you don't know how arrogant you're coming off, but your arrogance doesn't mean that Plasma is bad. Only the software will matter in the end.

We seem to get to a point like "gnome vs. kde", but now it's "kde3 vs. kde4". And that's not what should happen. At first, 3.5.x will be maintained for quite a long time. So you don't need to stick to kde4. Really. Stay at 3.x if you feel more comfortable with it. That's okay. And if you even prefer another DE that's okay, too. Stick to your needs.
Plasma is a VERY young technology, and it will mature, that's for sure. But it is also for sure a new way of handling things. And that is the real point. If you don't like this way, you shouldn't use it, as long as it is not your way. Though, never forget, the underlying structure can be foundation of tihings you never would have expected. There just somebody needs to step up and make the coolest widget you would ever see....
I remember my first impressions of Folderview. I didn't saw my icons, but this widget thing. And then i tried to configure it. Wow! I can point it to wherever i want? I can even add more folders, even remotely? And i can drag&drop between them?
Nevertheless, everybody has it's own behaviour, and that's okay. So feel free to use what fits your needs. There are SOO much choices out there, and all of them are configurable. KDE4 maybe not in the way like KDE3, but just wait, and it will come.

Quoted from "neverendingo"

Plasma is a VERY young technology, and it will mature, that's for sure. But it is also for sure a new way of handling things. And that is the real point. If you don't like this way, you shouldn't use it, as long as it is not your way. Though, never forget, the underlying structure can be foundation of tihings you never would have expected. There just somebody needs to step up and make the coolest widget you would ever see....

Well, first of all, no one is ever going to make a widget cooler than Konqueror used to be.

But we're talking about software that didn't exist before, and only half exists now. By definition, that makes it experimental. You can't possibly anticipate everything about how this is going to play out on people's desktops, but you're making it the default of the default of the most powerful Linux Desktop environment ever. Just a little bit of humility here could mean the difference between confidence and hubris.

Ah well. Listen to me, pontificating about hubris! Sometimes I remind myself of Heath Ledger's great line from The Dark Knight "I'm just a dog, chasing cars. "

No matter what happens, you guys are doing awesome and important work, and I think it's going to work out fine. If Plasma turns out to be New Koke, KDE 3 in on a track to continue indefinitely, a conservative desktop that is only occasionally changed, but Plasma is not going to be New Koke, a product that nobody liked and didn't advance soft -drink technology one inch. Plasma isn't going to fail, it just may not win over everybody. But it could be a TOTAL failure and still be an important contribution to the future of technology.

KDE 3 is indeed going to be around for a long long time. Keeping KDE3 alive indefinitely may turn out to be easier and more practical than building KDE 3 into KDE 4.

Quoted

The presumption that I'll eventually come around is what makes me think that I'm not being respected, and it makes me want to hate KDE4 Why am I supposed to keep an open mind when my point of view is being dismissed.

On the contrary I don't expect you to come around. What I don't understand is what makes plasma "worse" than the old way of doing things? In theory with plasma you can completely replicate KDesktop + Kicker. Currently it isn't available, but after a while you will be able to use it just like you always could. Yes, there are interface changes, but to me I see it as a means to move forward. And I don't think we should disregard people's opinions, and clearly the KDE guys aren't doing that. KDE 4.0 wasn't even initially gonna have a proper folderview style desktop, but because of pressure, folderview was invented, and its much better than any previous desktop I have used. Similarly the Kickoff menu ( which I do love ) has the option to disable and switch to classic style menu, and although myself ( and I'm sure a lot of the KDE coders ) feel that to be a step back, if the people want it, it goes in. I really respect Plasma's design and think it's a wor of genius, but i still don't see it as being anything more than a means to put together a desktop environment, which could be KDesktop and Kicker.

Quoted

People who don't use their computer all the time are going to love Plasma.

And btw, I do use my computer all the time, and I can point out one amazing feature of plasma that makes working on the EEE kinda kewl. Someone left a comment on my blog suggesting it, that I remove all panels to conserve screen space and have my task manager on the desktop. It seems weird at first, but Ctrl + F12 shows the Dashboard, and from there I have what I need. I couldn't do that with Kicker, and KDesktop's inability to work flexible widgets ( no i dont want karamba ) is an issue. The dragging and resizing has gone through many interface tweaks over the last month or so, and it makes life easier. And its not exactly something you have to do more than once ( although I agree, on slow machine it chugs a little ).

Well, I did come around, big time. See my other post on that.

And agian we see the that power users people who code programs and hopefully debug them and a bunch off followers
are not willing to make changes off any kind to people who think different, the silent majority
Those people people like me only want a Kdesktop with the functions as kde3 and kicker with the same functions as kde3,

Can plasma put that on the table : a Kdesktop4 with the functions as kde3 and kicker4 with the same functions as kde3,
So no svg no silly plasmoids nothing all the same as in kde3 icons themes everything

If it cant kde4 is doomed to be a hobby for the kde4 devs and will never be the T-Ford off the desktops

I had to rewrite this post several times because I am having trouble figuring out how to react to the cases of ideological supremacy and hypocrisy that have shown up in this thread. For a board about brainstorming, it doesn't make sense to have so many people simply condemning ideas simply because they aren't exactly the same as what already exists. Nobody is forcing the adoption of KDE 4. However, those who say that the new features should be removed in order to simply have a clone of what already exists are trying to force others to conform to their own conservatism.

That being said, Plasma has a lot of potential for increasing the productivity of the desktop space. The ability to set up an environment that allows access to a variety of context specific tools at the press of a button is much more effective than the file dumping ground that is most peoples current desktops. Yes many features are glitchy, and some are non-existant, but that is because it is a work in progress. I am looking forward to future integration between Plasma activities and KWin desktops in order to produce several unique and accessible workspaces. Really, all Plasma is doing is taking existing desktop techologies and incorporating them into a single maleable structure that can then be manipulated to improve desktop effectiveness. The ideal is that you would have an easy to access everthing you need that is related to what you are working on.

So, my question is, to all those who are against any deviation from the classic desktop metaphor: What do you use your desktop for?

Quoted from "SteveMcQwark"

I had to rewrite this post several times because I am having trouble figuring out how to react to the cases of ideological supremacy and hypocrisy that have shown up in this thread. For a board about brainstorming, it doesn't make sense to have so many people simply condemning ideas simply because they aren't exactly the same as what already exists. Nobody is forcing the adoption of KDE 4. However, those who say that the new features should be removed in order to simply have a clone of what already exists are trying to force others to conform to their own conservatism.

That being said, Plasma has a lot of potential for increasing the productivity of the desktop space. The ability to set up an environment that allows access to a variety of context specific tools at the press of a button is much more effective than the file dumping ground that is most peoples current desktops. Yes many features are glitchy, and some are non-existant, but that is because it is a work in progress. I am looking forward to future integration between Plasma activities and KWin desktops in order to produce several unique and accessible workspaces. Really, all Plasma is doing is taking existing desktop techologies and incorporating them into a single maleable structure that can then be manipulated to improve desktop effectiveness. The ideal is that you would have an easy to access everthing you need that is related to what you are working on.

So, my question is, to all those who are against any deviation from the classic desktop metaphor: What do you use your desktop for?

Actually, I pretty much use my Desktop as a file dumping ground. Do you really have a problem with that?

Most of the time, I run KDE applications in Fluxbox, and Konqueror 3 is an awesome complement for fluxbox, because it contains nearly all of the capabilities of KDE in one interface. Konqueror is the center of nearly everything I do (except, ironically, web browsing) The Desktop is out of sight most of the time, until I call it up, so using it as a dumping ground for files works great for me. When I start up KDE as a desktop, it's usually to generate files, and I directly use the Desktop to catch the files that I generate, and then I move them elsewhere. Clearly, this does represent "a deviation from the classic Desktop metaphor".

Speaking for myself, none of your characterizations apply. I'm not "condemning ideas simply because they aren't exactly the same as what already exists". I've spent enough time using KDE 4.1 to know that it doesn't work for me, but other people seem to like it, and why would I want to deprive them? Is anyone actually saying that Plasma should be removed? I hope that no one mistakes me for such a killjoy. All I want is for KDE 3 to be supported, which is currently happening.

The conventional wisdom (the party line) is that forking KDE3 will be an enormous, impossible enterprise, so naturally I would hope to avoid that. However, if someone wants to fork KDE3, I personally wouldn't expect or want anything else than continued security updates and maybe a bugfix or two, at least for the first two-seven years. How hard could it be? Some anti-KDE4 people were complaining that even though KDE3 would be supported, there would be no further development, but that's just not reasonable. You want the same thing, but you want it somehow different? Too much to ask, or at least too much to expect. I'll take the same, until something better comes along.

What makes KDE3 better IMO is that, because of Konqueror, it fits in beautifully with a window manager-- which is not how most people use KDE. I know I represent a minority, but people should be able to plan their own awesome desktop the way that I have.

And make no mistake, my Desktop is awesome. My keybinding and my menu are text files that I can directly edit myself, and a significant plurality of my menu and keybinding commands use Konqueror. I have keybindings that instant open my menu/key configuration files with kwrite for fast , and I have other keybindings that open the same keybindings with emacs if macros are called for. The upshot is what some might consider ideal:

Quoted

The ideal is that you would have an easy access to everthing you need that is related to what you are working on

You have no idea.

The problem with KDE4 right now is that it's being built for the majority, and maybe no one else is being considered. That's appropriate at this staqe. It's right and proper that the minority should be an afterthought. I'm willing to be patient, but I intend to be watchful... and vocal.

I think the developers have been remarkably good sports, and they have been responsive to the needs of users, and that's why I've been making my needs heard, and will continue to do so. And I'm not going to let my guard down because of promises of what's to come.